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328
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5/2/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 6, 2009 9:10 PM
in response to: walterbyrd
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> It's easy to just say that people are lazy, and
> stupid, and whiners, etc. Why not back it up?
>
> Show me I'm wrong, and I'll concede.
Let me start by saying that I haven't implied that you or any other IT worker is stupid and lazy. Please read my post carefully. I also never implied that hard work 'guarantees' success.
I actually agree with you for the most part, except I'm having trouble understanding what you're arguing about and who you're trying to convince? Only a minority of qualified applicants will get hired in the next few years for entry level and, only a select few will truly be successful throughout their careers. Virtually everyone on Dice, including our resident Oracle expert, agrees on this point.
The field has matured, and technically, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with this scenario. What's the percentage of English majors that become successful writers?
As I see it, the cards have been out on the table for a while, at least on Dice. Yet, there are still people who choose to play the game.
> Sure some high paying jobs exist today. But, is there
> any reason to think those jobs will exist five years
> from now?
Why should workers be entitled to high paying jobs in a glutted workforce?
> You say health care workers are in the same boat?
> Care to provide some evidence?
It's possible in the near future and as others have pointed out, it's already happening. Ironically enough, your enthusiasm for health care assistants will only invite the next flood of cheap foreign labor. Ever heard of tempting fate!
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23
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6/8/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists - BIB
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 5:58 AM
in response to: bbtr
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As always, business is business. Entry level jobs are not posted. You need to get in the company by the small window just like in the third world. Many senior IT don't have certs and all the requirements usually inserted in job ads. These requirements are there to give HR people a sense of power. If your network is large and powerfull, you can get the job and stay in even without degree provided that you know how to do the job. BIB!
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1,432
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4/24/07
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My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 7:26 AM
in response to: bbtr
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> Why should workers be entitled to high paying jobs in
> a glutted workforce?
The IT workforce is glutted due to the presence of mostly unqualified Indian imports. If the H1N1 pandemic were to wipe out the entire Indian workforce in the USofA do you think organizations would suddenly start offering higher wages to US citizens? Not on your life bubba. The CEOs would look to the next cheap labor market.
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2,374
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5/2/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 8:14 AM
in response to: idm
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Yep, GET RID OF THE H1B and L1s and at least what work is still here (and there is plenty) can go to US Citizens and GC holders.
I hear there are 270 Congressmen and women who are millionaires (net worth excluding value of home)
They appear not to give a krap
Write to them and express displeasure on a constant basis
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56
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9/5/07
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 8:21 AM
in response to: walterbyrd
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Hi WalterByred
I 100% agree with what you just said. But suppose we are able to convince every member of this forum that there is no shortage of IT folks and IT jobs are not abundant in USA , then what next ? Let us assume codecorrector agree with you ( just suppose ) , will that solve IT unemployment problem ? I feel that instead of convincing codeCorrector , we should convince CEO , Congressman that business should hire more US worker whatever it cost to the business. I am sure you have read the notorious quotes on this forum "OP should abandon IT ". I believe that problem is much bigger then H1b or India. Kodak would have died ,had they tried to persuade government to make laws to use Film roll and film camera and banned digital camera. I am in IT for last 14 years and feel bad about my perceived worth to IT managers . But I have read the book "Who moved my cheese" and accordingly moving ahead rather then ranting on this forum.
Thanks
Dicefans
Message was edited by: dicefans
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2
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10/27/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 1:18 PM
in response to: dicefans
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Since last January, I found only one position for a software engineer within 75 miles from where I live that was entry level and had no experience requirements. Unfortunately, it was in an area that I would never want to see such as candidate - a nuclear power plant. (I can picture it now - a newbie deadlock condition occurring in a task that regulates the reactor temperature.)
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1,089
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2/11/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 4:31 PM
in response to: CodeCorrector
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CodeCorrector- Walter's challenge involved specific salary ranges.
I looked at the Cisco ads, about half were overseas jobs, a lot of "intern" listings, too.
Where are the salary ranges?
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2,643
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3/2/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 5:03 PM
in response to: manowar
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> I looked at the Cisco ads, about half were overseas
> jobs, a lot of "intern" listings, too.
> Where are the salary ranges?
I don't think they put the salary range in their advertisements. I have seen that to be true in almost all entry level positions.
One of my friends joined Cisco straight out of school (Bachelors degree from India) and was paid 85k (I know because we were comparing notes on overseas offers). This was a decade back. Plus Cisco bonuses are apparently pretty good compared to rest of the networking industry. I don't know the state of fresh grad salary now though.
Also, I don't care about Walter's challenge. The statement "cannot be offshored" pretty much wipes off every job... except janitors and landscapers and truckers.
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6,412
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5/16/07
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 7, 2009 6:24 PM
in response to: CodeCorrector
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>> This was a decade back
Well
This is 2009 and not 1999
>> Cisco bonuses are apparently pretty good
Not anymore
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Posts:
4,298
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2/11/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 8, 2009 12:00 AM
in response to: CodeCorrector
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The bottom line is that even American college students in their Junior year know that the Indians will get the jobs, are they are getting very angry.
I have been speaking to young Democrats and Republicans, even high school students, and they are disgusted at the racism.
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2,643
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3/2/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 8, 2009 12:11 AM
in response to: USCitizen
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> I have been speaking to young Democrats and
> Republicans, even high school students, and they are
> disgusted at the racism.
Did the conversation started off by they telling you that they know that Indians are getting all the jobs, or by you telling them that you know for sure that Indians are going to get all the jobs!!
Seriously, USC, there are enough American people on the board who are gainfully employed. Look at Mary, 11i, sjenner, 1010101, TunnelRat etc. So, definitely not "all" the jobs are going to Indians. Also, there are many other nationalities that come here on H1Bs and T1s... not all Indians.
As much as I like you, and as much as I know you are bitter due to your unemployment, going to young kids and telling them that Indians are taking all their jobs sounds very similar to Madrassahs teaching their kids that America is the reason of all the evil.
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227
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10/19/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 8, 2009 12:13 AM
in response to: USCitizen
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"The bottom line is that even American college students in their Junior year know that the Indians will get the jobs, are they are getting very angry.
I have been speaking to young Democrats and Republicans, even high school students, and they are disgusted at the racism. "
I bet you've been telling them that. Who is the racist here?
Message was edited by: seaotter
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4,636
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3/4/08
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists - BIB
Posted:
Nov 8, 2009 11:36 AM
in response to: Yankee
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> As always, business is business. Entry level jobs are
> not posted.
Here's the thing: the optimists on this board insist that great opportunities for Americans in IT. They also insist that anybody in IT who is not gainfully employed must be stupid and lazy.
To be fair, the optimists have posted some job ads that show some good salaries. But, these jobs are for those with extensive experience in areas where is difficult - to the point of being nearly impossible - for Americans to get such experience.
So what I am wondering is:
1) Are the great salaries in IT for everybody? Or, are those salaries only for those who are already very well established and/or those top Ivy League one percenters?
2) If somebody is willing to work hard, and spend tons of money, and fight tooth and nail to get all that experience, will that person have a long term career, or will that person be replaced by a guest worker, or have his/her job offshored, in the near future?
I am constantly called pessimistic, negative, whining, etc. But, am I right? I have backed up my position many times: job ads, articles, facts and figures, etc. I am, hereby, holding the door wide open for my critics. Prove me a fool. All I am asking for is six ad nationwide, I hardly see how I could hold the bar any lower.
All I'm getting is bunch of back-peddling, and bunch of "I've heard" and "I knew this guy" stories: "oh those jobs are there, and they are realistic, but they are not advertised." Why aren't they advertised, if there is such a desperate shortage?
Here is an example of what I am looking for:
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Entry Level Network Engineer
* Bachelor Degree or Equivalent
* 0-3 years of related experience
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wl/jobs/JS_JobSearchDetail?jobid=28689977&jobSummaryIndex=0&agentID=&xfeed=1&wpmk=MK0000005&GCID=C17812x034
-------------
I don't know the starting pay, but network engineering can pay very well, especially once you have some experience - the job realistically could have a future. I don't see any unrealistic requirements. Network engineering jobs are often difficult, if not impossible, to offshore. Of course, it's possible that job will be given to a guest worker, but I don't see the intense, aggressive, drive to replace network engineers with guest workers.
I am not seeing jobs like that for developers, or dbas, or sysadmins. Those jobs tend to have experience requirements, that are unrealistic to get, if you don't already have them and/or the jobs are doomed to be offshored.
Anybody want to prove me wrong? If IT really is such a great field for those willing to train, and work hard, it should be a cinch to dozens ads for jobs that are realistic for average person, and are likely to provide a real future. So what is the problem? Why will nobody accept my challenge?
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Posts:
328
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5/2/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists - BIB
Posted:
Nov 8, 2009 11:53 AM
in response to: walterbyrd
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> All I'm getting is bunch of back-peddling, and bunch
> of "I've heard" and "I knew this guy" stories: "oh
> those jobs are there, and they are realistic, but
> they are not advertised."
I spilled my coffee, as I burst out laughing. The "I heard" and 'knew this guy" stories come exclusively from your camp. The standard misinformation rate just fell from $20/hr to 10/hr.
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Posts:
4,298
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2/11/09
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Re: My challenge to the IT career optimists
Posted:
Nov 8, 2009 12:02 PM
in response to: seaotter
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"I bet you've been telling them that. Who is the racist here?"
I am racist...in favor of Americans.
Just as the majority of other nations are racist as evidenced by the fact that their immigration quotas are far stricter than ours.
I ask students whether or not their professors are American.
I ask students to talk to their parents about who they're working with.
I ask real estate agents who can afford to buy the houses now.
I talk to the employees at the Department of Labor, who are mostly African-Americans, who were replaced vicariously by Indians.
I ask the professionals who are still working in NYC who's waiting for the trains and eating at the restaurants.
I ask plumbers and electricians why they are out of work for several months at a time; is it a slowdown in the economy or invasion American replacements?
Who do you think is working at the mall?
Who do you think is working at your local banking branch?
Who do you think is working at starbucks?
What do you think the overwhelming majority of their answers are?
I would love the whole world to live a Star Trek life but apparently that is not yet attainable.
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Helpful Answer
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